A victory for Gordon Brown
By Iain MartinLast Updated: 12:01am GMT 09/12/2007
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Let us call it what it is: a defeat. Those of us who wanted a referendum on the EU constitution have to accept that the cross-party campaign failed. The Reform Treaty, so called after a shameless piece of rebranding, will be signed this week in Lisbon and it would appear that the usual cocktail of European Union fudge and downright lies worked their depressingly familiar magic again. There will be a cursory debate in the Commons this week, the Government conceded. The Foreign Secretary may even honour MPs by leading the charge for Labour. So total is the collapse in the Government's morale that ministers rarely have the opportunity to be cocky about anything much at the moment. They know that on Europe they have won. Many people have showed how much they care. Labour MPs risked the wrath of their whips to organise a rebellion, the Conservative front bench spoke well on the matter and in excess of 100,000 Telegraph readers signed a petition demanding a vote on this latest erosion of our sovereignty. Yet, even though the wider public told pollsters that they disliked the whole business, such feelings at no point coalesced into an outpouring that might have altered the Government's determination to press ahead. Why did this happen? This is Gordon Brown's victory first. It is fashionable to conclude that he does not have any of the skills required for the top job. That may well prove true, but his aptitude for the patient, grinding, stubborn work of seeing off opponents should never be overlooked. For a leader now described as risk-averse, he took quite a gamble on Europe when he walked into Number 10. He is broadly agnostic on the grand European project and his mistaken reputation as a mild Eurosceptic is based on his blocking Britain's membership of the single currency. That was different. The economy was his preserve, he resented Tony Blair playing on that territory and through his experience of fellow EU finance ministers he had become, rightly, distrustful of the economic instincts of his counterparts. By this summer he had bigger concerns. The threat to the smooth passage of the treaty was the attitude of the British. The EU establishment, and the Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso in particular, were keen to persuade Brown not to cause trouble and he agreed. Brown's priority was to establish himself as a serious player on the world stage and he knew he was getting ready to distance himself from the Bush White House. He did not need war breaking out in Brussels as well as Washington. He presumed that while a majority of voters say they care about the erosion of British sovereignty, only a minority do so with passion. Stick this out and it will go away, he thought. And who is to say he was wrong? By the autumn, even as his domestic troubles worsened, he was in a position to be very relaxed on the subject in private. With a smile he talked of the "winding down" of the campaign for a referendum. So much for short-term calculations and the shameful wheeler-dealing with our institutions and history behind this sell-out. Is there anything more Eurosceptics can do? It would appear that while the British do not much like being sucked into a European super-state, there is no expectation that the process can be stopped. That attitude might have its origins in the rise of a shallow, consumerist society in which matters of substance are simply shrugged away: or is there more to it than that? Is it not that voters know they have been lied to in the past about Europe so many times that they have concluded reluctantly that resistance is futile? Time, surely, for a period of calm reflection by Eurosceptics of all persuasions. The answer is not a turning up of the volume; impotent rage failed in the past and there is no sign it will work in the future. The Conservatives have much thinking to do on how to reverse the drain on sovereignty without looking obsessive. Some of the party's MPs want to tie David Cameron into promising a simple referendum on this treaty after the next election. That is kamikaze politics. Look forward two and a half years: should the Tories really have in their manifesto a pledge to hold a referendum on a treaty most voters will have forgotten and were insufficiently angry about when it was approved? The next election will be about Brown's and Cameron's fitness for office, not old treaties. Brown blew his chance to alter Britain's direction of travel in the EU and it will fall eventually to someone else to change our course. As the think-tank Open Europe showed recently, we are set to contribute £71 billion in the next seven years, enough to take 3p off income tax overnight. This process must be halted, reversed even. It is not enough for the Tories to say Cameron's instincts on this are sound. Perhaps they are. Those closest to him, his advisers and shadow cabinet big beasts, certainly share a moderate Euroscepticism. If they win the next election they will have to find a way to do more than talk a good game on Europe. They cannot delay a plan forever. |
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While Brown may have signed the "Reform Treaty", that does not mean it has been ratified. There is still a parliamentary process to be undertaken, which includes passage of the relevant bill through the House of Lords where Mr Brown cannot assume a supine opposition.
What Brown has done is postpone the issue. With his commons majority and support of the yellow party, he is assured of defeating a referendum clause in the Commons, but has no such certainty in the Lords. He may eventually have to invoke the Parliament Act, but the delay involved could not only annoy the EU hierarchy, it could lead to this being a hot topic just in time for local elections in 2008 and 2009.
Mr Brown is a good tactician but not a strategic thinker. This will come back to haunt him. It is most certainly not time to wind down the campaign for a referendum.
Posted by Paul HJ on December 13, 2007 1:36 PM
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So many lies about the EU, it's just depressing to read. You have no idea what the EU is all about, and your hatred for it is fueled by biased, unbalanced press reports.
Try reading and educating yourself on the subject. For instance:
link
And:
link
You won't read the truth in the British press, unfortunately. Think for yourselves. The European project is a good thing. It could be better, of course, but it's worth fighting for!
Posted by Mr A Hershko on December 10, 2007 11:43 AM
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Some classic observations here, to which I can add nothing.
Paul (1): "They ruthlessly cling to their hegemony over the rest regardless of public opinion or consequences... They are able to do this because they control us via legislation and taxes. They are using our own money to maintain this situation and we cannot stop them.
"We have no viable recourse to legal action whatsoever, especially in Britain. They can do just as they please and indeed do just that over and over again.
"THE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC of British governance is an absolute reluctance, often refusal, to rescind existing legislation if it means giving up any power and/or control and of course tax revenues."
Harry Fredericks: "I know of nobody that wants European union for this country; nobody at all. Even on various forums there are ridiculously few that advocate Joining Europe. Gordon Brown himself doesn't seem to want it. So what the hell is happening?"
Andy: THEY know best, from how we should live our lives to how they should spend our money.
Posted by PaulD on December 10, 2007 12:58 AM
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Mr. Martin,
Time will prove this defeatist attitude wrong. This EU will fail amd it has the seeds of its own destruction within it.
The Euro will also fail and the people will, in the end, get fed up of bureaucrats they can't control leading their lives. It only needs some major economic downturnb to fuel the increasing resentment already out there.
Some of us have already left the EU. The fight goes on wherever we are and this edifice will be brought down - one way or another.
Only when the riots start will the politicians listen - untrammelled immigration could yet be that fuse.
Politicians - Brown - listen up. You have not won this one, the people's turn will come. And when it does the political class as a whole will tremble. You have been warned.
Posted by John Pursey on December 9, 2007 11:26 PM
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Iain Martin old chap - yawn - There won't BE any more elections - unless of course humiliation is your thing and you get a perverse kick out of voting for a glove puppet.
Didn't anyone tell you? December 13th is 'Traitor's Day'. The British have been lied to, cheated and deceived. This by the Lib/Lab/Con party in connivance with the mainstream media and that includes the DT. Treason is about to be committed again.
Oh yes.. let's just discuss how useful it might be to have a referendum in two years time, Angela Merckle permitting it of course.
Let me explain, lest it is not clear. If, of sound mind I knowingly sign away my house, my bank account and at the same time forfeit any rights to legal redress, I will not have anything left.
Why don't you write a useful article about the infiltration of Common Purpose instead? After all, they're using up nearly two thirds of our taxes already.
Posted by emmie on December 9, 2007 11:12 PM
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If the Conservatives were to advocate leaving the E U they would walk in to power
Posted by doug jacques on December 9, 2007 10:26 PM
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Iain Martin, this is unworthy of Telegraph journalism, and shallow in its accuracy. Brown was part of the pro-Euro campaign, Britain In Europe, and told the BBC that he would be one of the leaders of the Yes campaign in any Euro referendum.
He has been hacking at our economy, so as to gradually knock it into shape for joining the Euro - look at the changes of statistical calculations and the big tax rises.
And the overtaxed British public will not thank him for signing away 63% extra (a whopping £42Bn net) towards the EU budget for exercising its superstate powers over us.
Wake up, Iain Martin.
Posted by Skeptic on December 9, 2007 8:00 PM
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All those who support Europe are QUISLINGS and HITLER lovers....
Posted by Referendum NOW !! on December 9, 2007 7:42 PM
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I have just had an e mail regarding the governments reply to the petition for a referendum on ID cards
"The Government was elected in 2005 on a manifesto commitment to introduce ID cards ..."
I am angry that they choose to stick to the manifesto on ID cards but not on the EU constitution. B......s.
Sorry to go on a bit today.
Posted by Steve Byrne on December 9, 2007 6:05 PM
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charles USA on December 9, 2007 2:09 PM
You are absolutely correct sir. This government and the EU criticism of (the popular) President Putin & Russia in the recent election is beyond belief. I do not understand how President Putin lets them get away with it.
It really is spin when this government keeps telling us how free we are. Keep telling us and soon we'll all believe it.
Pass the kalashnikov.
Posted by Steve Byrne on December 9, 2007 5:59 PM
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Iain you might describe this as a victory but it is not. Brown has simply broken yet another promise and this time a manifesto committment.
To think that Brown would even consider public opinion is to be in cloud cuckoo land. How many people marched against a hunting ban and against war in Iraq? Millions and they were ignored. The last time public demonstrations were effective was the poll tax "riots" and they were successful because government feared the escalation of the action; I have always believed that elements of the labour party encouraged that behaviour. The reason that those of us who understand what is being done to this country do not demonstrate and riot is that, in general, we were brought up believing that democracy would prevail. Democracy might prevail if elected politicians kept their word and honoured their pledges.
What none of us can understand is why people like Brown who clearly love to exercise power so willingly give it away to an unelected elite in Brussels. What is the price of their treachery?
Posted by John Broughton on December 9, 2007 5:28 PM
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Holding a referendum on this 'constitution' will be a complete waste of time come the date of the next election. Assuming they have the guts to ask it(which I doubt)the real question that the new Government should put to a referendum is whether this country wishes to remain a member of this crooked, elitist, sleaze-driven shambles. I for one say bring it on!
Posted by Michael Dinsdale on December 9, 2007 4:36 PM
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They say the best way to reform a corrupt institution is by infiltration. Unfortunately infiltration by the Stalinists has changed the UK government from corrupt to an even more corrupt institution.
The same has happened in Europe despite UKIP Euro MPs. Lets face it, why would any of them want to derail the gravy train that they've jumped on?
I will vote UKIP at the next general election simply because that is the only party with similar views to mine.
But, I fear, it will be a wasted vote without PR. PR will never happen because it would mean the end of control by the 2 biggest parties, so when the next bunch of thieves are elected to power with a minority vote, your views and mine won't be recognised, again.
Let's face it, we will never be given a vote on Europe.
Posted by John, Bremerhaven on December 9, 2007 3:57 PM
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Perhaps Gord wants to follow Tone into yet another job!
Posted by Conkeyron on December 9, 2007 3:02 PM
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And your government dare scold Russia's? Some
nerve!
Posted by charles USA on December 9, 2007 2:09 PM
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More people in Britain should read the eureferendum, but, that would require them to thimk, and today thimking is not allowed in schools.
Posted by Not Toobrite on December 9, 2007 1:56 PM
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Our collective apathy on the EU is in the processing of selling us down the river. We are not given a free vote on the Constitution-as-Treaty - plainly because the majority of us is insufficiently interested in the matter and has little grasp of matters European.
It is so insidious the way that we are subsuming into the EU that we may never understand what we are doing until the idea of reversal is nigh on impossible. I wonder if this is an area already indoctrinated via a pro-European stance factored into every aspect of state education?
Breaking up the UK plays right into the hands of the EU: smaller malleable states with no overall influence are exactly what it wants to thrive. Regional governments and PR would be another fillip for them.
Posted by simon coulter on December 9, 2007 1:55 PM
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So what if we had put half a million or more people on the streets? Labour would only have ignored them (they already have form - think of the marchers against the Hunting Act and the war in Iraq). Protests cut no ice with this lot - THEY know best, from how we should live our lives to how they should spend our money. Get out and vote as soon as you have the opportunity - it's the only way you can make a real difference. And when you do put your X on the paper, remember that Labour promised us a referendum on Europe when they were looking for our votes but steadfastly refused to let us have one once they were back in power - in case we made a decision they didn't like.
Posted by Andy on December 9, 2007 1:28 PM
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What a litany of despair in the remarks so far! However there may a glimmer of hope.
Assuming this Government will be forced by its own unpopularity to hang on until 2010 before going to the country, the next chance the public will have of voting against this EU takeover is June 2009, only 18 months away. The national election then is for the European Parliament to which the UK sends 75 MEPs elected on a Party list system which favours small Parties. Thanks to this the UK Independence Party won 12 seats last time in 2004. In contrast to its poor chances under the first past the post system in all other elections this was an astonishing success for UKIP . Obviously it was based on the fact that people realised that the EP election was for a meaningless institution and therefore a great opportunity to show opposition to the EU by setting aside usual Party loyalties and backing the one Party truly opposed to the EU - UKIP.
How much more anger will there surely be in 2009 against the EU and the Lib/Lab/Con consensus of main Parties which have all caved into it? Just think of the effect a UKIP landslide would have then. With UKIP the biggest British Party elected to Strasbourg/Brussels how could we stay in the EU! It's all possible.
Posted by George Earle on December 9, 2007 1:26 PM
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I would just like to put forward two points here. I know of nobody that wants European union for this country; nobody at all. Even on various forums there are ridiculously few that advocate Joining Europe. Gordon Brown himself doesn't seem to want it. So what the hell is happening?. What gain to destroy democracy?...
Secondly, I went to the proreferendum rally, and there were disappointingly few people. I asked friends who had told me I could count on them to be there why they didn't bother and the answers from most might surprise you. Many were in fear of police using anti terrorism laws and tazers and brutality etc. I thought well, hold on; we are not in Europe yet, we have our democracy for a little while longer, so why fear. I have been told the police behaviour at the green protests at our airports bordered on police state tactics. It has got me wondering I tell you. Very sisister; rule by fear and the Mencken ploy eh?...
Posted by harry fredericks on December 9, 2007 12:49 PM
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100,000 signatures on a petition is nothing, UKIP got over 500,000 votes during the last general election and everyone who voted for them must support British withdrawal. Unless we want a European government with a puppet administration in Westminster that tries desperately to pretend it still governs Britain, we need to something a little drastic because time is running out. We already have this BTW.
Posted by Stuart on December 9, 2007 12:47 PM
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Nigel Farage and UKIP are paid by the E.U. to be a safety valve.The only party commited to get us out of the mess of Europe is the BNP.
Posted by D.H.Boater on December 9, 2007 11:35 AM
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It would be premature to concede victory to Gordon Brown and the EU just because the member states had signed the treaty - that step of signature being nothing more than a formal confirmation that they have agreed on a final text, and they each intend to ratify it.
Just like the Constitutional Treaty, this treaty can only come into legal force when all the signatories have ratified it "in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements" - and it was at that step that the previous treaty fell.
In our case ratification will require a Bill to be passed by both Houses of Parliament, and then given Royal Assent.
Far from "The answer is not a turning up of the volume", now is the time to start doing that. Every MP who votes for ratification of the treaty, and against holding the referendum we were promised, should be made to understand that henceforth he will be a marked man, and his betrayal will not simply be forgotten by the time of the next election.
Incidentally there are good campaigning leaflets available free of charge from the Democracy Movement, through their website:
link
If the Bill does get through the Commons it will be down to the turncoat Liberal Democrats, without whose support the government would have a hard time securing a majority. They are really showing themselves in their true colours.
But the Tories must also understand that unless they want the accusation that they are only "going through the motions" to stick, they have no choice but to pledge that as far as they are concerned we will have a referendum on this treaty, as we were promised, and if this government doesn't agree to a referendum before ratification then a Tory government will hold a retrospective referendum.
It wouldn't be good enough to say that they had opposed this treaty and demanded a referendum, but as it had been ratified they would have to accept it. If they tried that, they would find a lot of angry people working hard to stop Cameron achieving his Prime Ministerial ambitions.
.
Posted by Denis Cooper on December 9, 2007 11:21 AM
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You claim it is a victory for Brown. I say it is a defeat for open, transparent and representative democracy. Thanks to this dishonest and devious man, we will be deeper in the EU mire. I think that you don't give us much credit when you say we don't care. We do, and that will be reflected in subsequent elections. This gross betrayal of a manifesto pledge will come back and bite Brown in the backside. It's yet another nail in his beckoning coffin. I do believe that the only referendum we need is 'in or out' and call the bluff of these traitorous b%#£*$ds.
Posted by Slim Jim on December 9, 2007 11:12 AM
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Brown shows the short-term success of lying, breaking promises, deceit and theft from the public.
We all know however, that he was never elected to the High Office of PM.
He will be turned out of number 10, even if we have to wait 2 more years.
He now has nowhere to hide from intense public scrutiny, and his incompetence at number 11 will also return to sabotage his plans.
He may live as a Dictator now,but he cannot abolish the Election ballot box.
Posted by Ricchie on December 9, 2007 11:00 AM
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If this is such a victory for Brown why is it that he will not be there to sign the 'treaty' -- hiccup!
Hopefully we won't have to wait 2 or more years for this govt to be sacked -- they are digging a big grave for themselves. Any so-called victory will leave a bitter taste in the mouths of the voters.
Posted by Chips Westwood on December 9, 2007 10:26 AM
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Gordon Brown claims to be listening to the people. Rubbish.
If he was really listening we would now be out of the EU.
I never voted for Brown, Labour or the EU - is anyone listening?
Posted by Ian of Horsham on December 9, 2007 10:22 AM
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But you know on the plus side maybe it's time to ditch Westminster!
At least european EU politicians have been honest about what is going on.
Posted by Steve Byrne on December 9, 2007 9:54 AM
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Treason is the only word for it!!!
Posted by Roger Parkes on December 9, 2007 9:53 AM
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It will be easy to assert our independence within the EU if we ever have politicians who want to do it.All we have to do is not implement any of its laws we do not like and to refuse to meet any penalties if we do so.Just like Italy recently did when it deported thousands of Roumanians.
The corrupt EU dictators will then have a very difficult choice to make-
to keep us in or to kick us out.If they kick us out we can then make new alliances contrary to the EU's interests. In view df having been told numerous lies ,we can feel perfectlt justified in doing so.
Unfortunately we need gutsy ,honest,principled politicians before we can again achieve self respect.
There are none on the horizon at the present time,only the self serving variety.
Posted by Edward on December 9, 2007 9:45 AM
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Unless there is a real revolution I am afaid the Battle for Britain has been lost.
I attended the proreferendum rally in London it was sparsely attended.(But Nigel Farage was there though)
I thought may be the cost of getting there (£35 return ticket for me) was the reason, But no there was an abortion rally on the same day that had more attendees and coverage by the media.
It's all over. Everyman (or woman) for himself.
Posted by Steve Byrne on December 9, 2007 9:34 AM
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There is only one thing that matters here and it applies to anything and everything apertaining to British governance, either directly or by proxy from Brussels.
That is that the electorate are powerless to stop the politicos/bureaucrats doing what they want to suit themselves and the established status quo.
They ruthlessly cling to their hegemony over the rest regardless of public opinion or consequences. They are not interested in you peasants or your concerns.
They are able to do this because they control us via legislation and taxes. They are using our own money to maintain this situation and we cannot stop them.
We have no viable recourse to legal action whatsoever, especially in Britain. They can do just as they please and indeed do just that over and over again as I have stated oft times before.
Nobody should be surprised by this, it is classic Labour and indeed socialist politics in general.
What is so shocking for some however is the complete inaction and feebleness of the opposition this last decade.
As I have also remarked upon before, do not expect a change of government to alter the aforesaid status quo.
THE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC of British governance is an absolute reluctance, often refusal, to rescind existing legislation if it means giving up any power and/or control and of course tax revenues.
What the hapless British electorate wants is entirely irrelevant, they are just there to fund their lords and masters, the existing political elites and their chums.
Yes, you the ever compliant British public are forced to be complicit in your own downfall.
Welcome to the new surfdom.
Posted by Paul (1) on December 9, 2007 9:33 AM
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It seems to me that Mr. Martin is attempting to excuse the inexcusable, in his blind support of the "Boy David".
The only political party that is genuinely anti-EU is the UKIP. The Tories have probably the worst record when it comes to watering down British sovereignty.
However he is right when he suggests that the vast majority of British subjects do not seem to care less, preferring the attractions of the trinkets that glitter in the shops.
Can you blame them though? They have been progressively let down by all of the governments since the fall of the wartime government led by Winston Churchill, starting with the disastrous Attlee.
The capacity for independent thought seems to be completely absent from the minds of British politicians. They have slavishly followed and supported the needs of the USA and the Europeans and anyone else, and all for the sake of appeasement, which never works.
The key to peace is to stop interfering into the affairs of ones neighbour. By all means trade with them if their terms suit, and exchange ideas, but never, never appease.
Posted by Stephen Jenner on December 9, 2007 8:52 AM
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You forgot to mention Sarko's pet project of giving Blair the Presidency of the EU. 'nuff said.
Posted by Cox says on December 9, 2007 8:42 AM
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Labour MPs sit in the Commons on the basis of a manifesto promising a referendum on constitution, now renameed a treaty, a referendum now revealed to be a lie. Their votes are tainted on this issue therefore, their party's veracity is tainted, the treaty is tainted.
Posted by Tom on December 9, 2007 8:22 AM
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How long after the signing of EU Constitution/Treaty will we effectively cease to be an independent state and become Euro Sub Region 21? Ten years top whacks is my guess. Future generations will judge us and the politicians who connived in this very harshly indeed and with every justification.
Posted by Nick Brazil on December 9, 2007 8:14 AM
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McBroon is unelected as Prime Minister (apart from 300 or so Lanour MPs) and inherited a manifesto promise to hold a referendum on the EU constitution.
You call simply ignoring both the promise and the wishes of the electorate a victory? The rage you describe as impotent is only such because democracy has been suspended in NuLab Britain.
Posted by O Zangado on December 9, 2007 7:34 AM
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I never vote.
I feel as though my vote is meaningless in the
face of politicians who
1) Think they know what is good for me
2) Don't care what I think
3) Will do whatever they want anyway
I feel as though I live under a dictator already.
Posted by Grumpy Young Man on December 9, 2007 6:19 AM
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A victory is facing the 'enemy' and defeating him. Changing the definition of conflict (from 'constitutional treaty' to 'reform treaty'), breaking a manifesto promise and then surrenderng is not normally considered a victory. Indeed, if Mr Brown is not prepared to defend his position on this matter it suggests a distinct lack of courage.
We, the voters, will determine if this is a 'victory' for Gordon Brown at the ballot box.
The suggestion that this shameful deceit will be forgotten by the time of the next election ignores two things.
a) It assumes the electorate have the memory span of a goldfish.
b) At the time of the next election the consequences of this deceit will be painfully obvious to the voters.
Posted by Bernard on December 9, 2007 5:45 AM
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Gordon may feel he has a 'victory' as he signs the EU Reform Treaty, aka the EU Constitution, which nearly everyone except for Mr. Brown knows it still is. Will he still feel it was a victory when the electorate remember this betrayal and his broken promise as made in the Labour Manifesto at the last election and he finds that he has become a Prime Minister who has never been elected to serve as such either by his own party, let alone the electorate at large. What credence can we put on his word or promises in the future? Little or none I would suggest. It is a strange thing how often it happens that those who preach the most, tell us of their integrity and moral precepts, seem to put them to one side when dealing with the people of this country.
Posted by Mary Willis on December 9, 2007 3:31 AM
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You spout utter rubbish at times, Mr Martin ; on the one hand you make it quite clear that you believe that the British people have accepted their Euro-Destiny and on the other, you are talking about how the Conservatives - who initiated and pursued this whole fiasco from the beginning - should try to look at ways to 'recover' some sovereignty...
At this point, one is tempted to hold ones head in ones hands at the silliness of your argument - what is the point of the Tories attempting to recover 'Sovereignty'(which they will be totally unable to do unless they pull Britain out of the EU)when the people, according to you, have accepted the situation ?
Frankly, we have reached the current situation because the people DON'T CARE - I realised this several years ago, which is why I no longer live in Europe ; apathy and Dictatorship rule large and Britons have sold their freedom for the sake of a quiet life.
I don't know why you press guys don't just set the example to the rest of the country of what you REALLY want to happen and just say that the UK is now a part of a Euro-State - nothing more,nothing less - and then start a topic that REALLY matters to the UK public, such as what will happen to the Insurance claimer who vanished on a canoe, or who will be the winner in 'I'm a Celebrity, get me out of here'.
The only problem with the last topic is that not only 'Celebrities' are trying to get out of there, and with good reason..!!
Happy Christmas All...
Posted by Trevor Scott on December 9, 2007 2:48 AM
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Eurosceptics should be sensible enough to know that this is not the battle not yet. I despair when i see some posters utterly beyond caricture or parody foaming at the mouth and screaming for UKIP, like that assortment of fruit and nuts wil ever acheieve anything.
Wait, bide your time and truly believe we will make a stand when the right time comes. As long as we stay a United Kingdom (no England cant do this on its own we need the Union) our independace will be regained.
In the meantime please try to refrain from all the braying,braggart rah rah rah type rants. Good chaps!
Posted by bill40 on December 9, 2007 1:24 AM
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You can tell why the Eurosceptic keeps losing
ground cause easily - its in its very name. Euro
SCEPTIC. To be sceptic is to be negative. The
plain truth is that you will never, ever win with a
negative message, no matter how sound your
intellectual arguments.
Until those involved stop allowing their
arguments to be framed in response to the latest
euro-initiative and instead enunciate a positive
vision of the future - say as a free trading nation
taking advantage of the immense possibilities of
globalisation - then the rachet will continue in
the same direction.
Posted by Andrew Cadman on December 9, 2007 1:06 AM
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Ok,
so now we have the date for the revolution. The day after the signing.
We now have an augean stable to clean up - so lets get to work. Stuff the useless, dishonest, incompetent and traitorous politicians. The prime traitor is Gordon Brown and his deal with Blair to swap being prime minister in return for all the behind the scenes dealings to end up as the first 'President of Europe'.
I will not allow Brown or Blair or any other to sell my birthright as a freeborn loyal Briton into slavery to an unelected, unwanted, bureaucratic and undemocratic dictatorship calling itself the European Union.
Posted by ratcatcher on December 9, 2007 12:27 AM
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